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- WORLD, Page 36Shevardnadze Speaks Out
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- By Eduard Shevardnadze, John Kohan, James Carney
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- When Soviet Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze
- addressed the Congress of People's Deputies last December, not
- even Mikhail Gorbachev was prepared for his old friend's
- shocking announcement. Warning that "reactionaries" were trying
- to gain control of the government and that "dictatorship is
- coming," Shevardnadze angrily resigned his post. Though
- Shevardnadze never directly criticized Gorbachev, his words were
- interpreted as an admonition to Gorbachev that he risked
- becoming a captive of the military as he struggled to control
- the country's chaos.
-
- When Shevardnadze tours the U.S. this month, he will have
- a new title: president of the Soviet Foreign Policy
- Association, an independent think tank on international issues
- that he helped found in February. Last week Shevardnadze met for
- 40 minutes with TIME Moscow correspondents John Kohan and James
- Carney in the association's sparsely furnished Moscow
- headquarters, which still smells of fresh paint and plaster.
- Excerpts from the interview:
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- Q. Do you still believe that a dictatorship may be coming?
-
- A. The threat has not diminished. I'd say the situation
- has become more tense, whether we're talking about the economy,
- society, politics or ethnic conflicts. But nobody can tell
- where the dictator might come from. History knows many examples
- when political unknowns have emerged. Take Hitler, for example.
- Who knew him? The situation in his country was so bad that he
- managed to force his way into power and cause so much misery and
- tragedy. I don't mean to say this will happen here. But if we
- fail to stabilize events and the country plunges into chaos, the
- people may demand a man with a strong hand and dictatorial
- inclinations who would bring about order.
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-
- Q. What do you think about the joint statement calling for
- a new union treaty that Gorbachev and the leaders of nine of
- the country's 15 republics signed two weeks ago?
-
- A. It is an important, positive development. I have often
- spoken out in favor of dialogue between Gorbachev and Russian
- leader Boris Yeltsin. What they have agreed on does not cover
- everything, but it sets forth some basic principles. It is a
- good beginning.
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- Q. What did you think of the Communist Party plenum that
- was held after Gorbachev met with the nine leaders?
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- A. I don't want to comment on the plenum. I have an
- unpleasant feeling about it, particularly because some
- participants called for the introduction of a state of emergency
- and demanded Gorbachev's resignation. This goes against my own
- convictions.
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- Q. How are your relations with Gorbachev?
-
- A. They are normal. Of course, we don't have as much
- contact with each other as before. He is very busy, and I have
- many things here to take care of.
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- Q. Has Gorbachev consulted your association?
-
- A. We had a long conversation recently in which we covered
- many subjects, including major political issues. Our future
- contacts will depend on how well the association works.
- President Gorbachev will need us if we can produce interesting,
- useful and original ideas. But if we limit ourselves to
- collecting membership dues, then nobody will want us.
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-
-
- Q. Many people believed your resignation signaled the end
- of "new thinking" in Soviet foreign policy. Are we entering a
- period in which the pursuit of national interests will once more
- be dominant?
-
- A. You know, there is one particular issue where the
- national interests of the Soviet Union and the U.S. are
- completely identical. This is the problem of stability in the
- Soviet Union. If we manage to control our domestic situation,
- we can count on good Soviet-American relations. If our country
- should plunge into anarchy, it will be hard to predict the
- consequences and how they will affect our relations.
-
-
-
- Q. What role does the military-industrial complex play in
- the life of your country?
-
- A. Our military-industrial complex has an immense
- potential that has not been properly used so far, especially
- when we consider the reductions going on in weapons and armed
- forces. We are late in coming up with a program for conversion.
- We should have done this back in 1985, when we first proclaimed
- the principles of new thinking, and after the Geneva summit,
- when we talked about the impossibility of waging a nuclear war
- and decided to normalize relations with the U.S. We invite
- Americans to visit our military-industrial complex. I cannot say
- that all doors are already open, but many enterprises are ready
- to cooperate.
-
- It would be naive to think we could demilitarize the
- Soviet Union in two, three or even four years. It's a process
- that requires an equal response from our partners. Work is
- going on now to reform the military. I support a professional
- army. It would be better to have fewer but better-equipped
- soldiers, who are guaranteed a better standard of living.
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-
-
- Q. When you resigned, you spoke about democratic-minded
- reformers slinking "into the bushes." Are they still in hiding?
-
- A. Those small saplings have since grown into large trees.
- But, seriously speaking, there is a different trend now -- and
- not necessarily because I made that warning. Democrats have
- begun to think about the need for unity and developing a common
- platform. That is all for the good. But I think they should move
- faster.
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-
-
- Q. Do you ever have any regrets about your decision to
- resign?
-
- A. No, I have no regrets. I suffered a good deal in making
- my decision, but it was based on my moral principles, my
- political convictions. I believe what I did was right. I don't
- know how much use it was to society, democracy and perestroika.
- But I am convinced I was right.
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